Wednesday, 18 June 2008

Gianni Zuffa interview


Where do you come from?
I come from Imola and I used to go right up on the racing circuit at night with high antenna and we could get Radio Luxembourg. It was 1974 and ’75 and we’d listen to these records. It was music we couldn’t find in Italy, until three or four years later. So I had a passion for looking for these records. I’d go to Switzerland. I was interested in DJ culture. But far from imagining that you could put two records together in time, though. I’d buy 45s. Then there was no concept of mixing.

How did the shop Disco Più come about?
On 19th June, 1979 I started Disco Più. I took over an existing shop called New Reels. So in the beginning when the [Afro] phenomenon was starting some people would go to New Reels, but there wasn’t a special shop you could go to. We started importing records. I was probably the first that started to connect with these people. I’d take the records to them in the club. Most importantly, I’d spend hours and hours and hours listening to records. At New Reels the owner used to come down maybe once a week, whereas I was there all the time. I had the idea of working with the DJs. There was also Dimar but Dimar didn’t let people listen to the records. You’d have to go to Dimar blindfolded or if you’d heard a song on the radio and you knew what it was. There was also a local called Mike Clark, a Scottish DJ, who played locally, but he played things like Funkytown.

Tell me about Bob and Tom.
Bob and Tom were from another period. Nothing to do with Cosmic. They were the historic DJs of Baia. Their success was due to the fact that they were the first to work in a club that was ten years ahead of anyone else. A beautiful club, by the sea, and full of rich people. Everything was beautiful there. They were the first to mix records. No one had thought of that. In 1975 and 1976 when 12-inches first came out we didn’t think anything of them. “What are these for?” We didn’t know they were for mixing. I was still buying 45s or albums. It was beyond our conception. They were the first in this area that showed you could mix. We just thought, “12-inches? Waste of plastic!” At Baia, oh beautiful pussy! These two guys arrived and maybe they weren’t even very capable because if you go back and listen to the reels that have been preserved, lots of it was out of time and off-beat. Sometimes they got it right, but it wasn’t like today where it’s easy to mix. But it was like a bolt of lightning hearing them.

The main thing – the first thing – was the location of Baia. It was incredible. I went to Baia a few times as a kid. You felt overwhelmed in this place, a bit intimidated. “Where have I ended up?” It was like being in a film. And DJs would go to see this phenomenon. Just prior to this, DJs were changing records with these big knobs and with talking between the records, whereas these two were putting records in time and mixing them. They didn’t have mixers with faders, you have to remember what the equipment was at that time. If you forget about what was happening in New York in London, but here the people were quite amazed by what they saw. All around the DJ booth people were looking, but the record players at that time were belt-driven so they really weren’t made for it.

You can’t say how good they were because you’d have to go and hear someone like Larry Levan in the States. Or in England where there were places that were definitely better than here. It could be that they were just some ordinary DJs that had landed in the right club at the right time. The Baia had become a myth in all of Italy, people would come from all over. Beautiful people. The DJs had become names as DJs. DJs tried to imitate them. Mozart had tried to get them to help him and tried to learn from them. The crowd, the punters, were involved with the music, but it was more the context of it. The people there were people you don’t see any more. It was like something you might see in Monte Carlo. Very elite and very exclusive. You felt small and you were humbled by it all. I didn’t really see it through normal eyes I saw it through the eyes of someone who was interested in what was going on behind the decks and in the booth. I didn’t go for the pussy and the dancing so it’s difficult to know what it was like for normal people.

What were Baldelli and Mozart like?
In the beginning Mozart and Rubens were good friends. They lived quite near to each other. And Baldelli and TBC they came from the Rimini area. The most methodical, but less artistic was Baldelli and he wasn’t seen so positively by the other people who were into a lot of the drugs, heroin and hash and stuff like that. Those people who were off their heads and into drugs didn’t really see him much as an artist, but technically he was the best. Whereas Mozart, he’d done Conservatori which was the traditional school for musicians, so he knew how to play music. The others improvised but they were self-taught. Baldelli, after, because he didn’t have a strong club like Mozart at Baia, he moved on. Later the whole phenomenon degenerated, because they all just got lost in drugs. Baldelli was the one that remained lucid and he was more commercially minded, making his own tapes and so on. He had more of a managerial approach to his career. The others just got lost and ended up in clinics and overdosing. TBC wasn’t even very good technically, but he was always full of himself, you know, thought he was good and he didn’t really follow the public, he played for himself. Within a few years he was burnt out and finished. Baldelli was very professional and stayed the course. Mozart concentrated on making records and he managed to make some quite important records and so he came out of the clubbing world and didn’t get into doing any of the revival stuff.

I went to Baia between 1979 to 1981. It became bullshit for me, though. It eventually became too commercial. From northern Italy up to Austria and Germany, everything that was shit became Afro or Cosmic. And this whole thing about playing records at 45s at 33 and 33s at 45 had become completely ridiculous and completely detached from what we were doing in the late ’70s, when it was really about research and digging. We’d do a lot of digging, through lots and lots of records and choosing things that were musically really valid and good. And then after, anything that was rubbish they’d play at the wrong speed and say it was Cosmic.

What are the roots of Afro/Cosmic in your view?
No one in particular started this phenomenon. Those I mentioned had more personality and they had more opportunities to express themselves in the club they were working in. Baia was a great situation and Cosmic was also important, these were the clubs where at the time they were ten years ahead of any other club. They weren’t using the music that, even though it was good, was being played in other clubs. So we’re talking about a period of music that is after Prelude, Salsoul, Philadelphia. Instead they were going through records looking for one track on an album, or those thirty seconds or something that they could play, like some Brazilian tune. It was all about attentive research of records. It was still something that was really appealing and quite beautiful but it wasn’t something that was being played by everyone and that is what created the whole phenomenon. That’s what made the craze, not all these drugged out people. This whole drug thing made people ugly and those people made the clubs ugly, as well. A normal evolution, you could say.

As far as you’re concerned both Afro and Cosmic are completely independent of each other then?
Mozart isn’t anything to do with the Cosmic sound. He was more into Afro, Brazilian, whereas Cosmic started in Club Cosmic. So for me the Afro thing was an evolution and something that detached itself from the conventional commercial music of the time. It went off on its own and evolved. You could define it as commercial and non-commercial. It split up into factions, some would say that Mozart was the number one, or Badelli was the best or TBC. Also because of all this research they did, they had all these records that only they had. Unique records. And then everyone, when they played these records for four or five months after, everyone else was like, “what the hell is that record? What can it be?” It’s not like now, a record comes out and after three days everyone’s got it.

Mozart started playing John Forde and for three months everyone was looking for John Forde. It was a B-side of a record I’d got in a pile of rejected records that no-one else wanted. I gave it to him and he started to play it and push it. He identified himself with that record, it became part of his identity. Like Baldelli would identify himself with Sea Level’s On The Edge, which he got from a rock album that no one would have imagined there could be a playable track. But they were looking for alternative stuff in those days. They’d find a track and play it out and then people would be like, “Fuck what’s that song on Baldelli’s no 16 tape?” or “I heard it at Baia, Mozart played it”. The Cosmic sound wasn’t just born it was an evolution. Afro the same thing, an evolution. I used to give them the records, but the problem was they’d pull them out six months after. They’d keep it in their house and then they’d pull it out six months later and then you couldn’t get it anymore.

There were five or ten records that would typify Mozart. The same with Baldelli. They had them. Maybe at the same time I’d give them to one or two others or maybe to TBC as well, to cite an example. John Forde was a record that really defined a period; it was a record that Mozart played for months. I’d received three copies of it. I’d given them to TBC, Mozart and Baldelli. TBC played the other side. Baldelli maybe didn’t even play it and Mozart started playing Don’t You Know Who Did It. But he started playing it five or six months after I’d given it to him. When you go and look for it again, a record label like Sidewalk, an English rock label, how can you find a 12-inch after five months? And he’d been playing it constantly!

Another example. Everything that arrived, Baldelli wanted at least one copy. Everything. Because he was doing this digging, I was also trying to dig stuff up, also on albums. If there was a record, whether it was jazz, rock or pop, I’d get a copy. He was the one who had the most patience, the most desire to look for things. When he moved to Verona, I’d send two or three packages a week. In contrast to Mozart. I’d go to Baia and the thing that really surprised me was that one that night he’d play the records straight away. I’d be in the booth with him – dah dah dah – and when he liked it, he’d play it straight away. But it wasn’t always like that. Sometime he’d keep a record, God knows why, and then a few months later start playing it. And then the people on acid, like he was, would go off and try and find that record! Often I was there so I’d understand. After a couple of months people would ask for it again.

Baldelli was more difficult because of the distance. It was difficult to understand what side he’d be playing. And then there was the thing with the tapes. Tapes were a business for him but also a way for pushing music. Every week he’d do a tape and the people who followed him would have tremendous trust and loyalty in him and they’d find out the names of these tracks. He’d go and find too many tracks from rock albums and then people would come and ask for them and it wasn’t easy. I’d have to go and find that track. It would be continuous digging and looking. When I asked Baldelli what it was and nine times out of ten he’d tell me what it was. But then there were those times when he didn’t and everyone would go mad looking for it for months.

To get records I spent hours and hours all night. I tried to get at least one copy of everything. I’d always be looking for alternative stuff. Certain things they’d just give me, like, five copies. I had a big advantage. I created a network for myself, listening for hours, and to find all the alternative stuff. At that time even faxes didn’t exist. I’d speak directly with David in New York, my seller. Now a seller will do 50 shops, but back at that time I’d spend an hour and a half on the phone with him. After doing me he’d be exhausted and maybe would do one more shop!

If the big DJs played a record what impact did it have on record sales?
Going back to the summer of ’79, Johnny Harris’ Odyssey came out and George McCrae’s Don’t You Feel My Love. I’d get 30 people a day coming asking for them. They’d be trying to sing it to me. I could never get enough of them. After an hour they’d be gone. George McCrae was the hit of summer 1979. I remember other records like Candido’s Jingo and Living in the Jungle by John Tropea. These tracks you could sell for months and months: 500 or 800 copies. Difficult to say how many, because maybe after two years they’d come out again, thanks to the tapes. Someone would start DJing and they’d have the tapes from Mozart and Cosmic and these tapes were a reference point, so two years later someone would come in and say I want the records on that tape.

There were a lot of bootlegs as a result of the popularity of these tunes weren’t there?
The bootlegs started in 1981 or ’82. So just as John Forde you could find in industrial quantities on bootleg with a black cover or the original cover but you could tell because the opening was at the side. There was a guy who worked in the radio at Forli, he made these bootlegs. He started making these collections, Best of Mozart Vol. 1 and he’d advertise them on the radio. He’d advertise on the radio that he’d sell the tapes and the records.

Why didn’t they just license these tracks from the labels?
There were some small labels, the ones that came out in the mid 80s, Italo-disco, there was Full Time there were a few others. There were two or three major labels and a few private initiatives like Full Time. This [Afro] was an alternative phenomenon, marginal. It’s difficult to say whether, if one of the labels had taken one of these tracks, they would have had commercial success with it. If I sold 300 copies of a title, I’d be selling a big slice of all the imports that were selling, like 50%. 25 years ago, 1,000 copies was a fart, a blip. Nothing. We worked in big quantities, thousands of copies. La Bionda, Rockets, Donna Summer, Giorgio Moroder, big quantities, but that was CBS, Casablanca, Columbia, but they’d do thousands of copies and consequently albums. A thousand or two thousand copies of a record that today might be considered important, then was just negligible. Later on the Italo disco thing, there were some labels like Discomagic that were all born in the second half of the 80s, they were distributors who became labels, but with a totally different identity and style, which was probably an advantage, because today Italy doesn’t have an identity. Before we did have an identity and we exported. Remember Dolca Vita by Ryan Paris? You can criticise it all you like, but it sounded Italian.

Why didn’t anyone write about it?
Publications? They didn’t exist. The music industry was totally disinterested. Later we invented Discoid because there was nothing.

Who did you supply with records?
All of them. Mozart, TBC, Baldelli, Rubens… No one talks about Rubens and Ebreo and Spranga. They were all friends. They’d be the record box boys of the older DJs. Rubens was more capable than Mozart, but less of a public relations guy, less good at getting on with people and then drugs… He lost it before anyone. He lost his lucidity way before the others. Had these DJs stayed together and not let themselves been carried away with the drugs and they’d been in New York and London with some management behind them…. Who knows what might have happened? A lot of the people who followed them said Rubens was the best. He was hardly ever together, though. Bob and Tom and Mozart made their name also because of the club they worked in, if Rubens had worked at Baia, maybe he would have had a name.

Why do none of the new DJs tell anyone about the Afro scene?
It’s back to the media. Times had completely changed. It was all word of mouth and now it’s submerged. It’s part of our Italian nature… here you are for a team, you are for Mozart or Rubens, like it’s a football team. You tended to divide, that’s the mentality, and then throw shit at the others. In America it’s the opposite, if there’s a movement they support it.

What about the records on Sky, Klaus Schulze and stuff like that?
Harder to remember these names. They were later on albums. I don’t have a good memory of that period because, for me, it had all degenerated. The music degenerated. There wasn’t the same enthusiasm or the attention to detail. Everyone played things at the wrong speed. They were just trying to be different for the sake of it. They were just ruining the work that people had in the studio. The late’ 70s was the most creative period.

© DJHistory, Frank Broughton and Bill Brewster

Thanks to David Colkett for interpreting and Liam J. Nabb for the translation.

More DJHistory interviews


Smeerch said...

Thanks to Liam J. Nabb who transltaed this interview and who produced "Talkin' about the power". :)
This is a very intresting article. Let's keep on with this stuff, guys!


Margate Architecture said...

Nice to see the italians finally talking about their innvoations with the outside world. Liam J nabb is indeed co-producer of Talkin' About the Power alongside Simone Fabbroni and Blade (Jestofunk). There was a really healthy early house scence and alternative sounds in Florence in the 80s and 90s. Ever looking forwards, both Liam and Simone are now well into Dub Step.

Louise Oldfield